In a cultural moment marked by deep division and difficult conversations, this episode steps into one of the most complex and emotionally charged topics shaping faith communities across the United States: Christian nationalism. Host Karen Stewart invites listeners not to turn away from the discomfort, but to lean in—with curiosity, compassion, and a desire for understanding. Guests Caleb Campbell, author of Disarming Leviathan, and Rachel Williams explore not just what Christian nationalism is, but who it impacts and how we can engage with our neighbors.
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Leading Ideas Talks is also brought to you by Healing Fractured Communities, a book written by alumni of the Lewis Center Community Leadership Fellows program. Each chapter paints a picture of the work of healing fractures like racism, education inequality, and poverty. Each chapter also includes takeaways to inspire healing in your community plus questions for reflection. All proceeds support the Dr. Lovett H. Weems Jr. Scholarship Fund. Learn more and order now at churchleadership.com/books.
In a cultural moment marked by deep division and difficult conversations, today’s episode of Leading Ideas steps into one of the most complex and emotionally charged topics shaping faith communities across the United States: Christian nationalism. Host Karen Stewart invites listeners not to turn away from the discomfort, but to lean in—with curiosity, compassion, and a desire for understanding. Guests Caleb Campbell, author of Disarming Leviathan and Rachel Williams explore not just what Christian nationalism is, but who it impacts and how we can engage with our neighbors.
Karen Stewart: Good morning. I am Karen Stewart and this is the Leading Ideas podcast. Today we are going to be talking about Christian nationalism. All right. Don’t turn us off. I know, it’s a lot. But we’re not talking about it just in terms of what it is. We’re going to talk about it in terms of who they are. And not just that, but what you can do to have conversations with them.
Many of us discovered new things about our family, our friends and our neighbors. So instead of turning them off, why not be in conversation with them? This came to the forefront for me because as I was on a flight, a flight attendant tapped me on the shoulder and asked me if I was a pastor. I said it was, and her response with tears in her eyes because she had been watching the news, was, how do you give people hope in these times?
I had another colleague talk about how her pastor is a person of color, and she just needed to know how to better assist him. That’s our goal today to really unpack what it all is and how we can be who God has called us to be in these tumultuous times. What’s not lost on me is you are hearing this today, smack dab in the middle of us celebrating Jesus, riding it on a donkey for peace, and us getting ready to celebrate Resurrection Sunday. And today is April Fool’s Day.
I think we wake up every day thinking, “Have I woken up in an alternate universe?” The irony is not lost on me. So, we’ve got some great folks that I want to introduce you today to help us unpack and tackle this topic. First is Rachel Williams. Rachel Williams is the budget manager right here in the Lewis Center. But she is also a PhD student at American University, and she is studying justice, law, criminology, and security. Also with us today is Caleb Campbell. Caleb Campbell is the pastor of Desert Springs Bible Church in Phoenix, Arizona, and he is the author of Disarming Leviathan, Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor. Now he’s also a reformed skinhead and a Cowboys fan. Again. Don’t turn off the podcast because you’ve heard that. Welcome, Caleb and Rachel. What a blessing it is to have both of you with me today.
Caleb Campbell: Thank you.
Rachel Williams: Thank you, Karen.
Karen Stewart: So, let’s just start at Rachel from an academic perspective. What is Christian nationalism?
Rachel Williams: So Christian nationalism is many things, but I think the quickest way to explain Christian national-Christian nationalism is that it is the belief that America is God’s chosen nation and must be defended as such only by, or mainly by, Christians. So, Christians should be the ones in leadership. Christianity as a religion should have a special favored position over other religions in the United States. So specifically, we’re talking about the U.S. context. I should also say that.
Karen Stewart: Thank you. I’m curious as well. I probably should have started here for both you, Rachel and you, Caleb. What got you interested in this topic? We’ll start with you, Rachel, and then we’ll move to you. Caleb. What got you interested in this?
Rachel Williams: So, what got me interested in Christian nationalism goes back. Oh. What is that now? Back to 2013. I was an undergraduate student learning about terrorism and other types of political violence that are going on. And I was surprised at in the explanation of terrorism or, political violence, mainly the only religion that would come up is Islam.
And I was wondering if there are other types of political violence done by Christians or, or in the name of Christianity. And I found it, unfortunately. I learned about different abortion clinic bombings that had happened in the United States in the past, as well as going further back to the acts of the Ku Klux Klan as well. So that was kind of what got me into this area of interest and continuing to learn about the violence that had—the political violence that had been done in the name of Christianity—and the different ways that that has manifested in the United States in particular.
Karen Stewart: Thank you, thank you. Caleb, what about you?
Caleb Campbell: Yeah, I became the lead pastor, at Desert Springs in 2015, right in the middle of the primary season. And did not really see any of this stuff coming. But we had such division in the congregation from 2016 to 2020. I was trying to figure out why so many people were angry about talking about immigration or racial reconciliation, things of that nature. And by the time that January 6th, 2021, came around, right after that, about 80% of our congregation that was there in 2016 had left by the beginning of 2021.
And many of them left loud and accused me of, you know, being demon possessed or being a secret communist or being atheist because the evidence was, we had obeyed government regulations related to, Covid 19. Because we had continued, as we had been doing decades prior, talking about caring for immigrants and refugees. We had continued as we had done decades prior, talking about racial reconciliation. That really, got, a lot of pushback after, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and George Floyd were murdered.
And I was struck by the vibe shift in the congregation that I frankly, I met the Lord in this congregation, you know, 25 years ago. So I felt like I knew where we were all at and, what, 2016 to 2020 that season unveiled for me was that, there was an awful lot of, not only division within the congregation, but also a commitment to using the methods of this world to garner power and security, which was striking to me. Because I thought we were doing the Jesus thing.
And January 6th happens. I hear the word Christian nationalism. I’m sure I’ve heard it before, but that’s the time I remember me personally being like, wait, this is a thing? And what understanding the American Christian nationalist movement helped me see was that the reason that people were upset at me and yelling and angry and yelling at each other were not disparate bits. It was that over our movement, there was something bigger happening than just one person over here being angry about this thing and one person over here being angry about this thing. But it was all connected. And I’m three miles down the street from where Turning Point USA—Charlie Kirk founded that organization years ago—I’m about three miles down the road from where they host monthly events, Freedom Nights, at a megachurch.
And they were doing this in 2021. And people that I was pastoring at the time were handing me fliers in the lobby to these events saying, “There’s a revival happening, Pastor Caleb.” And I was so struck by the fact that what I looked at the flier and I thought, “Oh, this is a rally, right, a political rally.” But they said they said “revival.”
And so, me and one of our elders at the church, we went. And I was extremely distraught and disturbed by what I saw, because most rallies that are at churches, they go to the church goes out of their way to say, “This is a public civic event. Thank you to the community.” Maybe they’ll pray, but by no means have I ever seen, at a political rally at a church pretend to be church.
It might be hosted in the building, but this was a church. They did three of the worship songs we do at our church, they did an altar call, they took an offering. And then at the time, the leader of the organization, Charlie Kirk, got up and did a sermon. I mean, he preached “The Word of God says,” and he’s got a Bible in hand. And I watched as he was making explicit political points about taking over America, getting the—getting “them” out, you know, the enemy, and talking about gun rights and school choice, things like this. Making direct appeals to Scripture. And what was striking to me is everyone in the room is raising their hands, saying Amen and Hallelujah.
And so, for me, I was so disturbed by the syncretism, the merging together of a certain way of being political in America with the way of Jesus. That Christian nationalism as a—as a movement, became much more helpful to me to understand what was going on in the people that I was pastoring.
The book Healing Fractured Communities is written by alumni of the Lewis Center Community Leadership Fellows program who are pastoral leaders engaged in the work of renewal, resilience, and resistance in congregations, on college campuses, and in communities. Each chapter paints a picture of the work of healing fractures like racism, education inequality, and/or poverty. Each chapter includes takeaways to inspire healing in your community, and questions for reflection. Proceeds from the sale of the book support the Dr. Lovett H. Weems Jr. Scholarship Fund. Learn more and order now at churchleadership.com/books.
Karen Stewart: Thank you. Thank you. It makes me, you know Caleb, you are making reference to when you started pastoring and when Christian nationalism kind of hit your radar. But I’m curious as to how we got here. Because for me, as a woman of color, the things that I see in Christian nationalism isn’t new to me, but I’m hearing from others that it is new to them. Can you, Rachel, kind of help us figure out or better understand how we got here—where we are today—as a nation.
Rachel Williams: Well, that’s a big question, Karen. But I will do my best. In many ways, there—this has always been part of the United States and the what the United States has been as a country, to some extent, unfortunately, going back to the 1800s. This connection between Christianity and the power of the state, of the power of the government, as a way of both of those being interlinked and as a way to continue to consolidate power for particular groups of people.
And so that’s been around for a while. I think specifically for what we’re currently experiencing, in, in, the United States can to some extent start at the point of the 1960s, kind of the reaction to the Civil Rights Movement and, and different social and societal changes that were happening at that time, and then the reaction to those societal changes.
So for our current situation that, that is a, typical and—and make sense common point of, start—starting point to moving forward because that, that includes the creation of the Moral Majority and the other, and the other, kind of processes that came from the Moral Majority. A lot of the different organizations and leaders that then continued on to, to evolve and grow into the different, individuals and organizations that Christian nationalism is, is, pushed through today.
So that would be like the bare, main starting point, I would say for that. And that then has continued on, through different processes of talking about abortion and other concern and other political concerns that people have, and then connecting those directly, and mainly with Christianity. So, those—all of those movements have brought us to this point in different ways.
Karen Stewart: Thank you, thank you. You use two words, and I don’t know if you use them interchangeably, but you use the term nation and state. And, Caleb, as I was reading your book, you made a real distinction between the nation and the state. Can you unpack that a little bit more for us?
Caleb Campbell: So, in the Bible, we see the words Ethnos or Hebrew ger. They’re often translated as nation, and it means people group. It doesn’t … it doesn’t mean the legal entity that has a border and taxes and an army, that’s the state or the government. So, in America, we say, “One nation under God, indivisible,” and all that stuff. But that’s not actually true. We are many nations. So, thinking about America, we are many different people groups.
For instance, we have people groups like Creole, or Cajun. And there—that’s a people group, right? But they are also American. They’re part of the country and the state is America. So, I’m in the southwest, I’m Sonoran, born and bred. And the food and the culture and the music, I am a people group. I have very little to do with Maine or Rhode Island. Like they talk of lobster and things of this nature and I’m not sure what that is.
And it’s not that we’re—we’re all Americans. But I recognize that the thing that binds me together with those different people groups is—with those different nations—is that we are all part of one country that’s bound together not by common ancestry, not by common ethnicity, not by common king, but by an idea. And so, we are nations in a state. And the reason why I think that’s important is because we’re using the term Christian nationalism. And when you put a modifier in front of the word nationalist or nationalism, you’re, you’re answering the question, “Who gets to be in charge of the state? Which nation, which people group gets to be in charge of the state?”
And so, there’s like Irish nationalism, there’s Hindu nationalism. And in America we’re using the term Christian nationalism, to talk about Christianity as a tribe, a people group. Those are the people who get to be in charge of the state.
Caleb Campbell: Thank you for that distinction. I want you to also draw another distinction that you talk about in your book. And that is between a patriot and a nationalist, I believe is the distinction to make. Can you help us better understand that as well? I think sometimes we have to get our terms correct to make sure that we’re all talking about the same thing.
And it just seems like, you know, all of it is, is in this melting pot and it’s just becoming … these words are becoming very interchangeable. And what I might think about what patriotism is, because I feel as though I can’t be a patriot because now this term “Christian nationalism” has become so prominent that even leaving the country saying that I’m an American draws ire around the world. So, help us to make a distinction between those two terms as well.
Caleb Campbell: Patriotism is about love; nationalism is about power. So, C.S. Lewis talks about this in his book The Four Loves, that healthy patriotism is the word that we call, family love. The love I have for my family extended out to the broader nation or people group to whom I belong. And so, it’s the love for the places, the food, the music, the people, the way of being in the world. I experience, a phenomenon when I travel for more than a couple of weeks and I’m in a strange country, I experience what we sometimes refer to as homesickness, where I am not at rest when I’m in places that are strange to me. They speak; they talk different. The culture is different. I’m always … I always have to be on and aware.
And I moreover, there’s a lot about America that’s familiar to me that I love and adore and celebrate. And so, patriotism is all that stuff kind of wrapped up, together. And true love is self-sacrificial. So, acts of patriotic—patriotic acts—are usually in service of others out of love for the people. So, you know, it’s my patriotic duty would be something that we might say it’s an act of service for the larger group.
Nationalism can leverage patriotism (and often does). But nationalism says, “Hey, this people group that you love, or this group-thing that you love, you get to be in charge and dominate over others.” So, it’s about who gets to be a church.
So, for instance, I could say that, you know, as an Arizonan, I have a patriotic love for Arizona. But to say Arizona should now be in charge of the entire country, and in fact, the world, would be more of a nationalistic argument talking about who gets to have control, who gets to have power, who gets to be supreme. And so, when we’re talking about Christian nationalism, we’re talking about power. Who gets to be in charge?
And I might just make a quick note to: people who argue for Christian nationalism don’t actually mean it. And here’s what I mean. Christianity is a very broad movement. They usually mean a honed expression of Christianity that they approve of. So, it’s usually a kind of like denominational nationalism. I would just notice that no modern American Christian nationalist is arguing that Mennonites should be in charge of the Department of War because they’re pacifists. So, we don’t mean that kind of Christian. And so while we’re using the term Christian nationalism, where in actual practice people usually mean, a subset of ideas or ideals, and political postures that they bundle together to call Christian.
Karen Stewart: Thank you. Thank you. So, I can, as a Christian, I can be comfortable, based on your definitions, saying that I’m a patriot because you can be a Christian and a patriot without contradiction.
Caleb Campbell: I believe. So.
Karen Stewart: I hear some hesitation.
Caleb Campbell: Just because the term gets misused, sometimes. I think that healthy patriotism is, and I agree with Lewis in this, that, it is the love that I have for my family extended out. And I think that that’s good. Where it becomes malformed is when it now seeks to dominate over others.
Karen Stewart: I see, I see. Thank you. Thank you for that.
Rachel, I want to I want to kind of swing back to something because it seems as though, Christian nationalism has been around a long time. As you were talking about the definition and how it is, has, manifested itself in American culture and society. It seems as though it has been empowered to raise its ugly head a little differently.You know, you mentioned the KKK. You mentioned, you know, it used to be very undercover. And we may not have known who felt the way they felt. We knew that there was this undercurrent within the country, but we didn’t necessarily know who. Now, it seems very up in your face as to who it is.
And I became aware of a term. I knew there was a date, several years ago, I became aware that as people were talking about the makeup of America. They started talking about a term that I do not like, but I’m going to use it here, which is that people of color are going to become the “majority minority,” and they would stick a date on it. I mean, they had it down to in this particular year, this is going to happen again. I do not like the term “majority minority” because I don’t like the term minority. I think it’s very degrading to people of color. So just a take a note there, but there’s a term and it is called the great replacement. And can you unpack that a little. And is that or does that have some bearings into how we find ourselves where we are today?
Rachel Williams: Yeah. So, the great replacement. That phrase is connected to the great replacement theory. The great replacement theory as you just, as you described it, there is a particular date where the demographics are going to change in the United States of America. And, that the great replacement theory takes that to the point of that is a conscious effort being done by particular people for particular purposes in order to take away power from others.
So there’s, it’s almost like there’s a concerted effort in a way, behind that as one way of looking at another way is like, this is something that’s going to happen, and we need to stop it from happening because we are—everything’s going to change in a way that we will not have a place in it anymore. That would be those would be two different ways of a response to that type of information.
And so with that, how that plays into everything that we’re talking about is in, yes, Christian nationalism is about Christians being in the place of power and so on. But in a lot of ways, what really we’re talking about is white Christian nationalism. So it’s, what so how Christian nationalism plays out in the United States.
There’s a racial component to it as well, that there is a particular way of Christianity and a particular way of who is being considered like the it’s not just a true American is not just being a Christian, but also a white Christian in particular. So those are also pieces of what we’re talking about when we’re talking about Christian nationalism and that, and that’s how those two things come together in it, in what is happening right now.
There’s this, once again it’s a type of social change that’s occurring, and that people are responding in through a cognitive dissonance that is leading to we need to regain power or to take back or to take more power to stop this from happening.
Karen Stewart: I’m curious as a follow up to that. Because I hear you saying that Christian nationalism is really white. A white Christian nationalism. Is it, also gender based? So, is it more men than it is women? I know I was, listening to Ed Setzer as he was talking about the demographics of the church and, this was last year, he did some data on the demographics of the church, and he made, to assertions that I had heard had not heard before.
One was that women and girls were starting to leave the church. As well as that there is a rise of boys or men in the church. And I’ve often wondered is … could that potentially be tied to the changes in the climate that we see happening with Christian nationalism and the people that it has a tendency to reach more of it?
Rachel Williams: Yeah. So, I have also seen those articles and I’ve heard that data. And it is right. There’s actually a bit of a question to it is: are young men and boys more joining the church or is it more women and girls are more leaving the church? Like what is actually making the changes? And to some extent, I think the data still needs to be collected as to how far this change or how pronounced this change is going to be in the coming years.
But, in the way that that’s connected, in one way, the there’s always been like a connection between masculinity, religion, and the well-being of the state. That’s kind of been a through line in a lot of different ways, in the United States. And so, part of it is, the way of men being in the party, in having particular positions of power. That is how we continue to keep our power and to keep like, a balance in order that, that will continue to keep the United States in the good graces of God, but also as a successful nation.
So that’s kind of a very broad, understanding, a broad overview of where those connections come into play. And then as the focus becomes more of a particular power, power for men and less power for women, more women and girls would then less want to be at church.
That would be kind of the narrative at play with kind of these recent stats that we’ve—recent statistics that we’ve been seeing. And that—so in some ways, like you can connect a Christian supremacy to a male supremacy at the same time.
Karen Stewart: Caleb, I want to follow up with you, because I know you talked about The Great Replacement in your book as well. So, tell me what your comments are and how you see The Great Replacement as playing into where we find ourselves with Christian nationalism today.
Caleb Campbell: Yeah, I see the anxiety about pluralism is rampant in this movement. The communities in America are changing. As was said earlier, you know, this side of the 1960s, the pluralism in America has become, exponentially more vibrant. And that creates anxiety in folks.
For instance, Aunt Betty’s been going to the same grocery store for 50 years. She walks right down the street. She gets her bread or milk or eggs. She has a chat with the clerk. It’s lovely. But just the other day, she was standing in line. And—you won’t believe this. The clerk was talking a different language to the person in front of Betty. And for that fleeting moment she wondered, Am I going to have to learn a new language to go to my grocery store? Am I welcome here? Is this, you know … this strangeness is happening in a place that I find familiar. Now that anxiety can be handled in healthy ways and unhealthy ways. But the change is real. And many folks who are purveyors of American Christian nationalism will latch on to that real change and that very real anxiety.
And they’ll add gasoline to the fire, so to speak, saying, “That’s right, Betty. They are coming to take over and you won’t be welcome in your home anymore. They’re going to replace you.” And so, what do we do? I mean, what do we do if our home and safety are under threat? You reach for the sword. And so, a buddy of mine, Ryan, who’s studied the rise of fascism in Germany, made a statement that I think is true here.
He says authoritarianism grows in this seedbed of anxiety about pluralism. And as the community changes it makes us feel unsettled sometimes. And so authoritarian leaders swoop right in and make promises to keep that from happening to … to solve the anxiety. And as a pastor, my invitation for folks is regardless of the source of your anxiety, we don’t look to, leaders with swords to solve that anxiety.
We look to the King of kings who takes on, the cross and who dwells with us and promises to never leave us or forsake us. And so, the commitment that many folks have to American Christian nationalism is a misplaced trust that the movement will give them safety, belonging, and purpose as they feel, either unwelcome or unsafe in their own communities.
Announcer: Don’t forget to subscribe to our free weekly e-newsletter, Leading Ideas, to be notified when new episodes are published. Visit churchleadership.com/leadingideas.
Disarming Leviathan: Loving Your Christian Nationalist Neighbor (InterVarsity Press, 2024) by Caleb Campbell is available from the publisher, Cokesbury, and Amazon.
Related Resources
- Leading Amidst Christian Nationalism by Lovett H. Weems Jr.
- Leading in an Age of Political Polarization by David R. Brubaker
- Leading between Faith and Patriotism by Lovett H. Weems Jr.
- Preaching Our Principles Not Our Politics by David R. Brubaker
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