How can church leaders cultivate generosity in marginalized communities? In this episode, Jessica Anschutz speaks with Carlos Perkins who emphasizes that many Black, Latinx, and Hispanic congregations have been historically generous, despite limited resources. The conversation explores the importance of defining generosity, reflecting on personal beliefs about money, and how faith leaders can develop a theology of generosity. Perkins also highlights how past institutional traumas can affect a congregation’s generosity, and the need for leaders to address these issues to foster giving.
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Leading Ideas Talks is also brought to you by Theology of Stewardship and Biblical Generosity, a video tool kit designed to nurture the spiritual discipline of giving. This resource may be used in conjunction with an annual stewardship campaign or in a variety of Christian education settings, both for groups and self study. Learn more and watch an introductory video at churchleadership.com/biblicalgenerosity.
How can church leaders cultivate generosity in marginalized communities? In this episode, Jessica Anschutz speaks with Carlos Perkins who emphasizes that many Black, Latinx, and Hispanic congregations have been historically generous, despite limited resources. The conversation explores the importance of defining generosity, reflecting on personal beliefs about money, and how faith leaders can develop a theology of generosity. Perkins also highlights how past institutional traumas can affect a congregation’s generosity, and the need for leaders to address these issues to foster giving.
Jessica Anschutz: Welcome to Leading Ideas Talks, a podcast featuring thought leaders and innovative practitioners. I am Jessica Anschutz, the Associate Director of the Lewis Center for Church Leadership, and I’m your host for this Leading Ideas Talk. Joining me is Carlos Perkins, the Assistant Research Scientist and Associate Director of Engagement in the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at the Lake Institute of Faith and Giving. He also serves as Senior Pastor of Bethel AME Church in Indianapolis. Thank you so much, Carlos, for taking the time to speak with me today about cultivating generosity in marginalized communities.
Carlos Perkins: Thank you, Jessica. Thank you for welcoming me, and I look forward to the conversation.
Jessica Anschutz: In some of your writing, you have raised the question, “How do we cultivate generosity with communities that have historically had a tenuous relationship with money?” How can church leaders approach this important yet challenging work?
Carlos Perkins: So, over the last two years, through the Lake Institute, we have had the opportunity to work with faith leaders, pastors, bishops—leaders within their own context—that are leading in the Black, Latinx, Hispanic context. And oftentimes when we approach the conversation about cultivating generosity within their context, we immediately receive feedback that historically a lot of these contexts, a lot of these communities, have historically been generous. I think about the work of Tyrone Freeman, a professor at IU Indianapolis, that talks about Madam C. J. Walker, and that Madam C. J. Walker in her history of generosity did not wait until she became a millionaire to be generous, but she had a history of generosity.
And so, many of the faith leaders that I’ve worked with, walked alongside, coached over the last two years, will say to me “Carlos, our congregation has historically been generous,” that we have been able to build on very little access to resources and historically our congregation has given. It might not have been given resources because of our tenuous relationship with resources. And so, our conversations shift from the historic perspective around philanthropy, the respect historic perspective around giving and generosity, to then how do you in 2023, 2024, 2025, work within your context to continue to cultivate that generosity, as it relates to resources. But it’s not only generosity, financial resources, but how do you cultivate giving of time, talent, treasures, testimonies, and your connection. And when we shift the conversation, that goes beyond resources, then a lot of these faith leaders then respond to say, “Oh, there’s something that we can learn through this. And there’s something that we can engage in.”
Jessica Anschutz: So, broadening resources helps folks engage in the conversation. What are some of the other challenges that church leaders need to keep in mind when doing this work?
Carlos Perkins: First of which, whenever we start course, we oftentimes start with a definition of generosity. And this tends to invoke just a lot of conversation from faith leaders, especially in the Black and Brown communities. We use, as a foundation for our conversation, a definition from Christine Smith and Hilary Davidson, that is a sociological framework that helps us to define generosity. And Smith and Davidson define generosity as “The virtue of giving good things to others, freely and abundantly.” Within the definition, they talk about that like of all virtues, generosity is in people’s genuine enlightened self-interest to learn and practice. And when we start off our conversations with that kind of definition, it then pushes the audience—the individuals, the faith leaders—to think about: “How much work do I do in cultivating the virtue of generosity?” We ask the question, “Well, think about the other biblical virtues. How much time do you spend teaching and preaching about faith? Love? Long suffering? Joy?” And oftentimes they’ll say, “Well, we do that often. We do that weekly, or monthly, or at least three times for the year.” But then we asked the question, “How much time do you spend teaching and preaching about generosity? How do you cultivate a theology within yourself first, and then within your audience, within your congregation, within your community to embrace generosity as a virtue?”
Jessica Anschutz: How do you find that these church leaders are doing that work to cultivate that within themselves first?
Carlos Perkins: So, first it’s wrestling with your own history of generosity. We oftentimes ask the question, “What is your earliest memory of giving or receiving?” We layer that conversation, Jessica, with “What is your theology of giving? What is your theology of money?” And oftentimes when we are talking with pastors, with faith leaders within diverse communities, the conversation begins with “What did you learn from your family of origin about money?” And that invokes a lot of response from, “We never talked about money,” to “We didn’t talk about it because we didn’t have it,” or “This wasn’t a consistent conversation within our community,” or, “I didn’t talk to my mom and dad about it, but my grandparents would say to me, right? Work hard, save, because we want to make sure that you can prepare for those that are yet to come in ahead of you.”
And so, we oftentimes start our… either our courses, our workshops, our conversations with faith leaders around: how do you interrogate your own foundational beliefs around money? Where did you start to build? Where did your foundation build from, in terms of who taught you about your interaction with money? And how do you translate this to the audience in which you are serving? What are the biblical texts that you use when you’re talking about generosity, right? Is it from the perspective of these two frameworks that we share? And we oftentimes tell our pastors that these are frameworks, right? These are not one or another; but these are frameworks in which you’re looking at cultivating generous givers. That they’re individuals that operate from a traditional paradigm or from an emerging paradigm. A traditional paradigm really adopts the idea that folks see there is a theology of duty, right? As I’m a part of an organization, if I’m part of an institution, then I have a responsibility and a duty to contribute to the organization. Or this theology of response; that you are so clear about the vision and mission of the organization that you invite others to respond to your mission and vision, respond to your social justice work or your social impact. How do you approach that?
And in order for faith leaders to really interrogate and continue to cultivate donors within their context, continue to cultivate their congregation, they too must first interrogate themselves. Do you get from a theology of duty, right? Do you oftentimes espouse scripture or texts that support that paradigm versus an emerging paradigm? Or are you writing the vision and making it plain to the people? Or are you using an Old Testament Malachi text that says, “Will a man or woman rob God?” Right? And so, whenever we engage and invite pastors and leaders into that conversation, they become more self-aware of their own generosity and their own foundation and how it impacts how they teach and preach.
Jessica Anschutz: So, a first step, right? Interrogating yourself and thinking about how you teach it. What’s the next step, as far as working with the congregation or within the ministry context in order to cultivate generosity?
Carlos Perkins: So, the next step, for us then is: What do we know from the national trend in terms of giving? And so, we invite our audience to, to walk with us through the Giving USA report that is published yearly, or other statistics that we share, other research that we have through the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy, to say “This is what giving to religion looks like in 2023” (with a report that was published in 2024). That religion is still the largest recipient of philanthropic dollars. But if you look back over the last 40 years, it’s been a decline in giving to religion, right? That you have less givers that are giving more; that individuals are giving to organizations… that there are more nonprofit organizations available that are asking folks to give and are appealing to, to the philanthropic world.
And then what are… are you clear about what you’re asking individuals to give to? So, even with our faith leaders, we oftentimes we pause in the middle of our training sessions and say, “What is the appeal?” We share with them, “You have the awesome responsibility, as a congregational leader to interface with your donors on a weekly basis. What are you sharing with them during that generosity? Is it an invitation? Do you have some intentionality of engaging? Are you clear about what you are called as an organization, as a congregation to do and how you’re inviting others to partner with you and partner with God to bring that mission and vision to fruition?”
And so, it starts with the pastor, with a faith leader interrogating the self. It then builds to the place where we’re looking at national statistics, and trends in giving, and then we transition to the point of “Okay, what are you doing as a local congregation to receive, manage, spend and regard finances, right? How are you inviting others?” And then, the truth is, Jessica, then oftentimes we say to pastors, “Let’s interrogate your own institutions, our own congregations, about the challenges for that organization to become generous.”
I love this part of our conversation because we oftentimes talk about institutional life traumas. If you look at your institution, what are the things that might have happened? Those traumatic things that we might or might not talk about that hinders your organization from becoming generous? And oftentimes, pastors, faith leaders, will say to us, “Hey, Carlos, it’s not my local congregation, but it’s my connection to the denomination. And I don’t have control over what’s happening with the denomination. I know what’s happening with my local congregation, but I don’t know how to control the public image, if I’m connected to a denomination.” Right? And so, understanding the impact that institutional life traumas can have on your local institution, and its ability to become generous.
What are the conversations that are happening nationally or locally about your congregation? About churches in general? And how that might impact you? What are the things that have happened? So, I remember the story of we were working with, teaching a cohort of pastors, and one of the pastors shared that they wanted to engage in a small capital campaign to purchase a vehicle for the church. And it was a clear vision; there was a clear need that there were more and more individuals that needed transportation to get to worship service, to get to activities. They wanted to expand the youth and young adult ministry, and it needed transportation. And they introduced a vision with some clear, some clear goals, a timeframe, and thought the congregation was going to be excited about it, only to face some resistance. And after further interrogating the source of the resistance, the pastor shared that one of the congregants said, “Well, the last time we did a project, we gave towards purchasing a bus, and we have yet to see a bus.” And so, this was before this pastor’s appointment, right? And they weren’t necessarily aware of that prior to this new vision. And so, the conversation then is how do you go back and deal with, resolve some of those traumatic experiences, to help the organization? So, it’s not that they’re not clear about the vision. They’re clear about what God is doing, how God is leading the institution in this time; but they still having this unresolved traumatic experience that’s preventing the organization from becoming a generous organization.
Help your congregation live into the connection between faith and generosity with Theology of Stewardship and Biblical Generosity. Designed to nurture the spiritual discipline of giving, this video tool kit may be used in conjunction with an annual stewardship campaign or in a variety of Christian education settings. This resource is ecumenical and may be used for self study or with groups. Featured topics: Stewardship 101; What the Bible Teaches about Giving; A Christian Understanding of Money, Possessions, and Generosity; Biblical Generosity; and Faith and Generosity. Learn more and watch an introductory video now.
Jessica Anschutz: That’s a really important piece to this work. Are there pitfalls that church leaders should avoid in doing the work?
Carlos Perkins: Absolutely. That generosity, like other virtues, takes time to develop and mature. And the intentionality that we spend around preaching and teaching, that we must be intentional about preaching, teaching about generosity. That when you engage in one of our courses or workshops or seminars, that we’re not going to give you the 10 steps for a generous congregation, and then you’re going to go back and next week that that’s going to happen.
We oftentimes share this cycle of giving, that continuous evaluation, plan, evaluate, implement. That, don’t fall in this hole to think that “Now that I’ve gone out, now that I’ve engaged, now that I’ve read this book, I’ve read this pamphlet, I’m going to take this back to my congregation, and suddenly they’re going to be ready for a capital campaign, or they’re going to be ready to maximize their generosity.” That cultivation takes time. It is more like farming than it is like hunting. It requires us to plant a seed, to cultivate the soil, to water the soil, to talk to the plant, to encourage the plant, to go back and check on the plant before you can go in and reap the crop. And so, I encourage faith leaders that, as we are walking alongside our congregations, both cultivating a generous congregation, but also cultivating generous donors, that that process takes time.
It also requires a next step for us, that generosity in religious fundraising is a part of our overall leadership, that that is infused into our pastoral leadership. I oftentimes share that, in my pastoral role over the last 23 years, I’ve had congregants come to me and say, “Hey pastor, I found the person of my dreams and would love to engage in, in pastoral… in premarital counseling.” And during the premarital counseling it is a discerning process. I know what you feel, but let’s discern to make sure that this is a person that God has sent for you to walk with for eternity. Cultivating generosity is a discerning process as well for the congregation, for the individual. And it is the faith leader’s role in helping their congregation and individuals to cultivate the ways in which they want to be generous. It is a discerning process, and it is a process that takes a commitment and intentionality from the leader to be able to engage in. And so, when we train leaders, when we engage in conversation with faith leaders, we’re also saying to faith leaders that this cultivating process takes time. Do not get weary in doing well, right? It might not happen overnight.
Now, there are some quick wins. I can share with you that we have engaged in cohorts, and immediately, the week following a cohort experience, we’ll get a phone call from a pastor that says, “Hey, Dr. Perkins, this really works! I have been wrestling with the idea, and especially around a conversation on asking for a major gift,” and a major gift can be relative, it depends on your context. A major gift could be $500, and it could be $5,000,000. I’ve had pastors after a cohort call on the Sunday or the week after to say, “Hey, this person I’ve been talking to even before the class, but now that we’ve engaged in the course we’ve engage in the seminar, now I have the language and actually set up a conversation, had a conversation, make, made the ask. And they actually said, yes.”
And one pastor to reach out to me, Jessica, and said on a Sunday morning, right before worship, she had a meeting and asked for a major gift. It was $30,000. And the person said, yes. And her response to me was, “Wow, I really pastor some generous people. It really just required me to get to the place where I wrestle with my own discomfort in having these kinds of conversations. The people were ready, but I wasn’t ready.” And so, how do we help faith leaders to equip themselves to be able to engage in a conversation, in a discerning process with their congregation, with individuals around being more generous.
Jessica Anschutz: What fruitful and exciting work you all are doing. You’ve referenced a couple of times, cohorts and resources, and I want to give our listeners a chance to learn from you about how best to tap into the resources that you all offer.
Carlos Perkins: Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you. Let me invite your audience to check out our website at: https://lakeinstitute.org/. We are a part of the Lilly Family School of Philanthropy at Indiana University, Indianapolis, and there are a number of resources on our website. You can also check us out on Twitter, on Instagram, on all the social media handles. We are there. But a couple of our resources that I want to highlight, what we call, “The Story Shelf.” And these are a collection of stories from across the country of congregations that are engaging in community impact work, community transformational work, leadership work in areas where one might think that it might be more difficult. So, stories around small congregations that have been able to partner with other congregations, with other community agencies, to maximize either building use space or an idea, to help to fund, resource the work that God is calling them to do. Congregations that engage the process of discernment to identify their congregational call.
As a part of the story shelf, we are banking some information on philanthropy in the Black Church. These are specifically Black congregations from around the country that are doing the work of social impact, that are engaging with organized philanthropy to be able to do the work of community transformation. I’m happy to report that we just published a report on cultivating generosity within the Latinx Hispanic community that I think is very informative, as individuals are working with Latinx Hispanic communities.
There are two anchor programs that we have—educational opportunities. We offer an executive certificate in religious fundraising. That is our anchor educational program. We invite individuals to, to check us out online and you can register for one of our courses and be a part of a cohort online. We also offer the same executive certificate and religious fundraising with partner organizations across the country. And so, we might be in a city close by that you might want to engage. We’ll be in Washington, D.C. later on in the summer. We’ll be in Nashville and Charlotte, we’ll be in Austin, Texas. And so, you can go online again at lakeinstitute.org and see the different cohort classes that we are offering.
We have a brand-new course is a short course that we developed as a result of hearing from our partners and our faith leaders that, “Hey, you touched on this for 15 minutes doing the executive certificate in religious fundraising. We need more on this particular topic.” And we’re doing a short course on the spiritual side of capital campaigns. We heard from, and especially if you’re looking at a capital campaign that is $300,000 or less, and you might not have the resources to engage an expert to come in, and a consultant to come in, that you’re doing some of the work by yourself as a faith leader with some of your leadership within your context. We have designed a three part-course, a three-session course, starting in January of 2025 on the spiritual side of Capital Campaign.
Jessica Anschutz: Thank you for taking the time to highlight just some of the wonderful resources that you all are doing to help resource church leaders who are doing this work and often feeling, as you lifted up in your example, intimidated by that work. I have really enjoyed our conversation, and I feel like we could go for the rest of the day, but I’m not going to keep you. I want to ask you as we wrap up: What words of encouragement do you have for church leaders who are seeking to cultivate generosity in marginalized communities?
Carlos Perkins: My advice to faith leaders, if there’s one thing that we can encourage you to do is to be clear. Spend some time discerning with the Holy Spirit around your congregational call. We are seeing through the national trend, through our Giving USA report, through this emerging paradigm, and given that more and more individuals are looking to partner with organizations that have a clear vision and mission around how they’re impacting the world beyond the walls of their congregation. The work around organized philanthropy and its relationship, both in terms of this intentionality in partner with diverse communities, is directly aligned to what social impact work you’re doing as a congregation. Try not to be discouraged by what you might see in front of you; that is, God has given a vision. He’s also providing the provision, the resources to do it. The resources might not be sitting right in front of you in the congregation. And so, I encourage faith leaders to be clear about your mission and vision and invite others to join you along. Discern in community, that there are individuals right now that exist outside of your immediate congregation, that are looking for opportunities to partner with you and with God to make an impact in the broader community. That’s my advice.
Jessica Anschutz: Thank you so much, Carlos, for your time and your inspiration and also your ministry.
Carlos Perkins: Thank you.
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Related Resources
- 50 Ways to Encourage Faithful Giving, a free resource from the Lewis Center
- Cultivate Generosity Through Thankful Giving by Sharron Blezard
- 7 Practical Strategies for Nurturing a Culture of Generosity by Ann Michel and Lovett Weems
- Theology of Stewardship and Biblical Generosity, a Lewis Center video tool kit resource
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